Curse

draxynnic · Jun 21, 2009, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Does Clumsiness/Wandering Eye spam really need AP to function? With two spells on a moderately short recharge, Echo or Glyph of Renewal, possibly combined with Arcane Echo, should keep you going, as well as potentially giving more versatility to the rest of the bar by using your GoR or Echo on some other skill instead (to fight a caster group instead of a physical group, for instance).

sonofthort · Jun 21, 2009, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Does Clumsiness/Wandering Eye spam really need AP to function? With two spells on a moderately short recharge, Echo or Glyph of Renewal, possibly combined with Arcane Echo, should keep you going, as well as potentially giving more versatility to the rest of the bar by using your GoR or Echo on some other skill instead (to fight a caster group instead of a physical group, for instance).

I agree with you, there was actually a build on PvX wiki that was echo + cop + wandering + clumsiness + energy management + "by urals hammer", you could easily pump out 400 aoe armor ignoring damage in a short amount of time with it. If you run the build that I suggested originially however, I think you will be amazingly suprised at how powerful it is, I feel like ppl aren't really understanding it. Read the reply post I made to the guy who listed all the things "wrong with it". A nuker (yes, it is a nuking build) that can do 500 aoe armor ignoring damage/health loss in 5 seconds is extremely powerful, combine that with the ability to repeat the nuke every 15 seconds + utility, and you have a great build.

AtomicMew · Jun 21, 2009, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonofthort

I agree with you, there was actually a build on PvX wiki that was echo + cop + wandering + clumsiness + energy management + "by urals hammer", you could easily pump out 400 aoe armor ignoring damage in a short amount of time with it. If you run the build that I suggested originially however, I think you will be amazingly suprised at how powerful it is, I feel like ppl aren't really understanding it. Read the reply post I made to the guy who listed all the things "wrong with it". A nuker (yes, it is a nuking build) that can do 500 aoe armor ignoring damage/health loss in 5 seconds is extremely powerful, combine that with the ability to repeat the nuke every 15 seconds + utility, and you have a great build.

I don't mean to be cruel, but... your build is very bad.

1) First of all, you are not doing 500 damage in 5 seconds. It is 500 damage in 10 seconds also in a very small range, which is measily. Wiki:aftercast

2) What the heck is this build for? PvE? RA? JQ? Your language makes me think PvE, but I swear, I don't see 3 PvE skills. Why? (Please don't even try making the argument that no PvE skills = more general)

If it's for RA, then you need rez sig, and then your energy is bad. If it's for JQ, then you have no self-heal or defense to speak of, and that is bad.

3) "Utility"... not really. Clumsiness stops 1 attack from foes in adjacent range. By comparison, Reckless Haste will easily stop +10x that amount in adjacent range.

draxynnic · Jun 22, 2009, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonofthort

I agree with you, there was actually a build on PvX wiki that was echo + cop + wandering + clumsiness + energy management + "by urals hammer", you could easily pump out 400 aoe armor ignoring damage in a short amount of time with it.

Was that build actually tested? Last time I checked, effects that increase the damage you inflict (such as Ural's Hammer and Lightbringer) don't actually function on damage from hexes - except in the case of hexes like Assassin's Promise that are linked back to the caster, the game doesn't seem to remember who placed the hex in the first place.

I might have to double-check, as it may have changed, but that has at least been my experience in the past.

Cuilan · Jun 22, 2009, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Ural's Hammer and similar increases damage done by hexes I cast. VoR, Backfire, etc. Works. :3

draxynnic · Jun 22, 2009, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Cool.

I wonder if that means it works for Lightbringer as well now, or just for Ural's Hammer?

Cuilan · Jun 22, 2009, 06:18 AM // 06:18

I seem to remember higher numbers with my VoR build when doing DoA, but it should.

Intensity works.

I'm going to try this build and hope I'm in a group with an ele or para who can cause on and off burning.

sonofthort · Jun 22, 2009, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

I don't mean to be cruel, but... your build is very bad.

1) First of all, you are not doing 500 damage in 5 seconds. It is 500 damage in 10 seconds also in a very small range, which is measily. Wiki:aftercast

2) What the heck is this build for? PvE? RA? JQ? Your language makes me think PvE, but I swear, I don't see 3 PvE skills. Why? (Please don't even try making the argument that no PvE skills = more general)

If it's for RA, then you need rez sig, and then your energy is bad. If it's for JQ, then you have no self-heal or defense to speak of, and that is bad.

3) "Utility"... not really. Clumsiness stops 1 attack from foes in adjacent range. By comparison, Reckless Haste will easily stop +10x that amount in adjacent range.

I like constructive criticism, but you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. First, to clear things up, this is a PvE build.

1) The range is not an issue because all PvE nuking builds effect adjacent foes, and where you are getting 10 seconds is beyond me. If you simply go to Isle of nameless and cast all these spells in a row, it will take you six seconds (fast casting you are forgetting maybe?), the first second is just setting up hexes, and all the damage happens in the last 5 seconds.

2) It does not have PvE skills with the exception of signet of corruption for the optional slot because the build simply doesn't need them. I've made a varient build that uses PvE only skills but honestly the one without is better, there are no PvE skills that could replace any of the skills on the bar without making the build less reliable.

3)Utility: Clumsiness will stop one attack, wanderying eye will stop many attacks, AoE deep wound will reduce monsters healing abilities (read description for deep wound if you did not know this), and the short lived 3 second weakness will further reduce monsters damage output and healing abilities (3 seconds doesn't sound like alot but by the time weakness is gone the monsters are pretty much dead).

Imaginos · Jun 26, 2009, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Just ran this a few times on master of damage to see what was what. Now a few things. First my stats were all 1pt less then his recommended on the wiki as I don't like to run more then a single major in HM, so my Stats were:

fast cast 11
illusion 15
insp 6
death 2 (see note below)

Same bar as on wiki with Sig of Corruption added in for more e-management

NOTE: due to having sig I tossed the extra few points into death for a virulence of 5 sec instead of 3 so I could get sig off for the energy

Damage:
with one casting I did roughly 250 damage every time in about 9 seconds. This doesn't take into account that I'd be doing another 97+97 to one target and -97 from that to every other target nearby.

so total damage with one casting of the whole bar would be 444 to a single mob and 347 to all nearby mobs.

Energy:
I found energy to be of little problem at all with drain delusions and sig of corruption.

I found myself waiting more for phantom pain to refresh so I could do the chain again.

Thoughts:
All in all not bad. This would be a great setup for a discordway team. I'll want to mess around with this and the other similar condition spam/spreading build someone else posted. The thing I see about this one compared to the other is that it does damage through virulence and the other doesn't. The other build is using more non damaging conditions such as cripple and blind, however they shut down mobs more then this one does due to that.

This build: deep wound, disease, poison, weakness.
Other build: cripple, blind, deep wound, cracked armor +1 kd.

both do damage also through fragility.
both spread conditions to all mobs nearby+

anyway I think this is worth playing around with to get a happy medium and really spread the conditions/hexes around.

Targren · Jun 26, 2009, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Pure theorycraft, since I haven't had the chance to test the build out yet but, I like what I see.

I generally just play my mesmer with my girlfriend who, as an MMO/GW noob, sticks to less demanding builds like fire ele. I'm thinking with her running MoR/Searing Flames, and someone to ball up the baddies, we can utterly rape face... The skill recharges might be a problem, but it's definitely something I want to test out.

sonofthort · Jun 26, 2009, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imaginos

Just ran this a few times on master of damage to see what was what. Now a few things. First my stats were all 1pt less then his recommended on the wiki as I don't like to run more then a single major in HM, so my Stats were:

fast cast 11
illusion 15
insp 6
death 2 (see note below)

Same bar as on wiki with Sig of Corruption added in for more e-management

NOTE: due to having sig I tossed the extra few points into death for a virulence of 5 sec instead of 3 so I could get sig off for the energy

Damage:
with one casting I did roughly 250 damage every time in about 9 seconds. This doesn't take into account that I'd be doing another 97+97 to one target and -97 from that to every other target nearby.

so total damage with one casting of the whole bar would be 444 to a single mob and 347 to all nearby mobs.

Energy:
I found energy to be of little problem at all with drain delusions and sig of corruption.

I found myself waiting more for phantom pain to refresh so I could do the chain again.

Thoughts:
All in all not bad. This would be a great setup for a discordway team. I'll want to mess around with this and the other similar condition spam/spreading build someone else posted. The thing I see about this one compared to the other is that it does damage through virulence and the other doesn't. The other build is using more non damaging conditions such as cripple and blind, however they shut down mobs more then this one does due to that.

This build: deep wound, disease, poison, weakness.
Other build: cripple, blind, deep wound, cracked armor +1 kd.

both do damage also through fragility.
both spread conditions to all mobs nearby+

anyway I think this is worth playing around with to get a happy medium and really spread the conditions/hexes around.

I like that you tested the build, I don't think you are calculating damage correctly however. As i said in earlier posts I consider the entire health loss that occurs through this build as part of its damage, thus bringing it up to 497, to all foes, not just the target foe. Master of damage does not report health loss through degen and deep wound. You are also comparing a build that does single target damage that also spreads conditions to a build that does the same huge damage to all adjacent foes. You say you did the damage in 9 seconds, which is too slow because i can get all the damage spells off in six seconds on master of damage, with death magic @ zero. I don't find energy to be that big of a concern with this build, you have two skills devoted to energy gain, and if you use them right you can rinse and repeat quite often.

Life Bringing · Jun 27, 2009, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Master of Damage DOES add in degen, but not DW. Also, an entire website told you this wasn't good, why try to get another site to think it's good? Frankly, Virulence is pretty bad.

sonofthort · Jun 27, 2009, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Master of Damage DOES add in degen, but not DW. Also, an entire website told you this wasn't good, why try to get another site to think it's good? Frankly, Virulence is pretty bad.

Every person that has had criticism for it has been incorrect about how it works. Until somebody who understands the build can point out how 500 aoe damage every 15 seconds is bad I will continue to think this is a good build. Also, there is no sense comparing this build to a single target spiking build since this is a nuking build. There are very few other nuking builds that can compare to this ones armor ignoring damage/health loss. Feel free to post a build that does equal to or more than the AOE damage this one does with a 15 second or less recharge and the ability to do all the damage within 6 seconds.

Phe Belladona · Jun 29, 2009, 11:20 PM // 23:20

everyone understands how it works, its VERY simple. its just this is only Adjacent range, the deep wound recharges slowly, it isnt the best condi spreader build out there for pve and stop calling it a spike if it takes 1.35+2.15+0.9+0.9+1.95+1.2=8.55secs (at 11 fast casting) to complete your chain to deal under 500 adjacent damage (and a little extra splash damage to nearby) you cant call it an AoE spike so much as rolling your face on the keyboard and doing a little effect.

its an average build thats been around for ages and has been surpassed by the addition of pve skills and new elites. yay for frag buff include it happily in your discordway or anything you're running illusion and conditions, but dont post inferior builds with incorrect info and pretend other ppl "dont understand it".

sonofthort · Jun 30, 2009, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phe Belladona

everyone understands how it works, its VERY simple. its just this is only Adjacent range, the deep wound recharges slowly, it isnt the best condi spreader build out there for pve and stop calling it a spike if it takes 1.35+2.15+0.9+0.9+1.95+1.2=8.55secs (at 11 fast casting) to complete your chain to deal under 500 adjacent damage (and a little extra splash damage to nearby) you cant call it an AoE spike so much as rolling your face on the keyboard and doing a little effect.

its an average build thats been around for ages and has been surpassed by the addition of pve skills and new elites. yay for frag buff include it happily in your discordway or anything you're running illusion and conditions, but dont post inferior builds with incorrect info and pretend other ppl "dont understand it".

When i said ppl don't understand it it is because of several posts in this thread where ppl have clearly been misinformed about how the build works. I call it a spike because the original build for pvp was a spike and this is an updated version adapted to pve for nuking, and 500 damage in 6 seconds is pretty good and could be called a spike. Sure, it takes 8.55 seconds to cast the entire chain, but the first ~2 seconds are setting up hexes and not doing damage, not causing enemys to scatter, all the damage happens in 6 seconds. Deepwound recharge is only 15 seconds, which is not terrible at all, and you can use a 40/40 illusion set to get around it sometimes and also be able to use wandering eye and clumsiness at 10 second recharge when u need to clean up before nuking the next aggro. You can't call 15 second recharge terrible when there is no other nuking build out there with a better recharge time that is viable in hard mode. I never said this was the best conidition spreader, it's simply a very good nuking build. Whether you like the build or not, there are not many builds that can do as much armor ignoring damage with only a 15 second recharge, and again you use the "its only adjacent range" arguement. How many other nuking builds out there have a larger than adjacent range? Clearly that is an inferior arguement. 8.55 seconds sounds slow, but in the game you will be doing a huge majority of the damage because it is actually very fast, and after 8.55 seconds, you only have to wait 6.45 seconds for the chain to recharge.

Raccoon · Jul 06, 2009, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Where did my post go?

Fragility is a terrible skill, even after it's (second?) "buff".

If your running around in NM with friends who are also running fragility mesmers then sure, go ahead. But in HM you would be hard pressed to find anyone running that bar. It relies too much on the existence of conditions which most monsters in HM can get rid of quite easily.

This idea that Mesmers should be causing as much AOE as possible gets on my nerves. Thats why you have slots of heroes and hench. Grab an ele and off you go.

Tenebrae · Jul 06, 2009, 02:07 PM // 14:07

No , is not a terrible skill but for god sake no one is saying that is overp or like an AoE elite skill . If you remove this "Fragility deals no damage upon reapplying a condition." , the skill would deal bloody lots of damage with minimum hero set up ..... hex adjacent foes ? lasting 20 sec ? only 5 sec recharge ? would be too much but dont sux either.

Raccoon · Jul 07, 2009, 01:51 AM // 01:51

On paper Fragility looks great. But up against other builds available to pve mesmers you have to seriously ask yourself why bother.

Painbringer · Jul 07, 2009, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raccoon

On paper Fragility looks great. But up against other builds available to pve mesmers you have to seriously ask yourself why bother.

My thoughts exactly.

Lately been running a spawning build so ebon assasin / ruby dijinn / empathy / back fire / and pain inverter

Not the same as the old hex and blast but more targets for the foes to attack the less things attacking me and more damage. Worked well with my discord team.

Fragility and ruby dijinn have a little synergy but not much

Tenebrae · Jul 07, 2009, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Its a matter of synergy . If you are going to make a Mes build going "hey group , do your stuff ill do mine" then Fragility is shit but if you are going Illusion anyway ( ye , happens sometimes hahah lol ) well , Fragility is a cheap hex , fast rech , that couppled with 2 or 3 ppl in your party that can inflict 4+ conditions with ease .... well there yo go cheap damage. The thing is that too often they dont recover from conditions and theres no way in hell an ele or some X/E is going there to crystaltenaiZE the mob